Complying with Trump's Latest Actions on DEI, Federal Funding & Executive Orders

Joe Young

Good afternoon and welcome to all of our GovCon warriors out there to the March edition of the GovConHR Round-Up podcast, where we were joking that March Madness has its own kind of connotation.

Declan Leonard

Did you say March or Musk?

Joe Young

March, March!

Declan Leonard

Okay just making sure.

Joe Young

Very different meaning for many of our listeners out there. But welcome back. Glad to be with you again today. My name is Joe Young. I am the President of GovConPay. We are the only outsourced payroll and HR solutions provider firmly dedicated to serving the government contracting marketplace. I'm going to do one shameless plug. I haven't done one.

Declan Leonard

Do it up.

Joe Young

This is really more for my marketing team: So I say we're the only outsourced… We got our first piece of business just recently from somebody who found us by putting in “government contracting HR, payroll HR” into ChatGPT.

Declan Leonard

And you all came up?

Joe Young

And we came up.

Declan Leonard

That’s awesome.

Joe Young

So thank you again to my marketing team. I wanted to shout them out. But hey, we are part of a large language model now.

Declan Leonard

That is good.

Joe Young

Wasn’t the goal when we founded it, but you know, things change. So very excited about that. But as always, we are coming to you live from Tysons Corner, Virginia, here in the studios of BLC Digital Strategies, the media affiliate of Berenzweig Leonard LLP. And with the support, as always, of our wonderful producer, Mr. Todd Castleberry.

Before we get started, I also want to recognize our great sponsor, the folks from Berkshire Associates. For those who don't know Berkshire, they’ve been HR compliance experts for over 50 years with experience providing compliant services and technology for organizations looking to build the ideal workforce through compliant nondiscrimination services, workforce analytics, and pay equity. As has been with a lot of the topics lately, the things that they work a lot on, we're going to be covering again today.

So welcome to all the clients and folks of Berkshire who are joining us. And for those of you who are loyal listeners to the podcast, you will see we have a fresh new face joining us today. So very glad to have along with managing partner…

Declan Leonard

I’m a fresh face too!

 

Joe Young

Not as fresh, but Nick Johnson, partner with Berenzweig Leonard, sitting in for Seth today. Nick, why don’t you introduce yourself.

Nick Johnson

Yes! Yeah Joe thanks for the intro. Honored to be here. You guys have put on some great videos in the past, and so looking forward to a really good discussion here. Nick Johnson, I'm a partner with Berenzweig Leonard.I work in our firm's employment practice, work closely with Declan on a lot of fun activities. I've been keeping us busy the start of this year.

Declan Leonard

And I'm Declan Leonard managing partner here at Berenzweig Leonard, where I also head up our firm's employment law practice. And I will say this much: Usually, Seth Berenzweig is occupying that seat. We miss him. I saw him walking around the hallway. He didn't know what to do with his time, but we're happy to have Nick in and Seth will be back soon enough, yes.

Joe Young

Well, we'll see how Nick does.

Nick Johnson

No pressure!

Joe Young

Before we dive in, I do want to remind all of our listeners today that if you do have any questions as we're going through the program today, please put them in the chat. Our team is monitoring that. We will try and address those during the program or at the end if there's anything that comes up that you'd like some support from us on.

So, what are we going to do today? We haven't been promoting topics because of the changing landscape that we've all been involved in. So, we're kind of going back to some things. Today we're going to focus on DEI revisited, some of the agency funding cuts, their impacts, and also there are new executive orders.

We seem like we’ve talked about executive orders ever since our episode in January. To get things kicked off, Declan, in January’s episode, DEI was all the talk. Two days after the inauguration we were in here, which was an exciting Thursday for everybody. And then it seemed to quiet down in February.

And now we're back talking about DEI in March. Why is that circling back?

Declan Leonard

Yeah. So what happened? Obviously, in January, the Trump administration imposed the executive order banning DEI. And as with many of these Trump executive orders, frankly, most of them, they were subject to court challenge and a Maryland federal judge imposed an injunction on that ban, basically saying you can't ban DEI. Well, that quickly made its way up to the Court of Appeals.

In this particular case, it's the Fourth Circuit that governs us. And they lifted that ban. They reinstated the Trump ban. They lifted the injunction and reinstated the Trump ban on DEI. So as of right now, as of when we're recording this…

Joe Young

Let me check my phone.

Declan Leonard

The Trump ban on DEI is absolutely in effect. And so that's why we're back talking about it.

 

And, you know, it's going to take up a lot of our discussion today, but we are going to hit some of the other executive orders, too, as you noted.

Nick Johnson

And Declan, just one thing to add, I thought it’s kind of relevant to some developments that we're seeing on the federal agency level is one of the arguments in that legal challenge was that no one really defined what illegal DEI is, and it was challenged on a vagueness argument. And obviously, as you noted, the federal court struck it down, struck down three components of it.

And one of the reasons why was because it was not defined and what I find interesting is now you're starting to see some guidance and some technical assistance come out from these agencies elaborating on what illegal DEI means, which is really important for government contractors, because that's what you need to look to when you're trying to figure out, okay, how do I need to correct this? What do I need to do to kind of address and comply with these executive orders?

Joe Young

Yeah. So I mean, that's why I think this isn't just culture war talk anymore. There are some real, actual applications to the GovCon community. Is there an additional thing to expound on there, Nick?

Nick Johnson

I think what's interesting is government contractors need to take action and they need to take action ASAP. I mean, I think we're seeing already enforcement action taking place. Certainly on the federal level, you now know that, OPM has an email address that you can report illegal DEI.

Look no further than the Department of Education, where they have a hotline about reporting DEI.

Declan Leonard

All you need is one disgruntled employee to make that phone call…

Nick Johnson

Yeah, absolutely. You saw just recently the EEOC issued letters to 20 national law firms looking for more information on their DEI programs. I think the most notable development that's happened very recently was on March 19^th - so, you know, less than ten days ago. The EEOC and the Department of Justice issued technical assistance, kind of explaining and elaborating what is illegal DEI and examples of what it looks like in the workplace.

It's something that I think all government contractors need to take note of. One of the things that this technical assistance and this guidance kind of noted was they defined what is illegal DEI. A DEI program essentially is when you have an employer taking an employment action - and they give examples of what an employment action is - when it is motivated either in whole or in part…

Declan Leonard

And that's critical.

Nick Johnson

Exactly. Motivated in whole or in part on someone's protected class - race, gender, disability. And as Declan noted, “motivated” is very different than “because of.” And so, it doesn't have to be the exclusive reason. It could just be, if that factored into an employment decision, that can be viewed by this administration and by our, you know, agencies that enforce that as illegal DEI.

Declan Leonard

And the phrase you hear a lot is the company wants to “balance out its workforce.” While they may not be looking to do quotas, that phrase “balance out their workforce” has come under attack. And that's going to be a problem if you start trying to go down that road.

Nick Johnson

The technical assistance and this guidance that came out from EEOC and DOJ, so they provide a definition of what is illegal DEI. They also made it very clear that reverse discrimination is discrimination. As some background, there's a case that's pending before the Supreme Court right now that's basically challenging whether or not reverse discrimination requires a different standard than your traditional discrimination.

The EEOC’s position is reverse discrimination is discrimination. And maybe we should talk. I mean, what is reverse discrimination? It's essentially when you have a majority group who's claiming that they are being treated differently. And so the common example is Caucasian males.

Declan Leonard

Middle-aged white males. What would we know about that? Although maybe you with your fresh face is not so middle-aged. We'll see.

Joe Young

I’m still middle-aged? Thank you.

Declan Leonard

Yeah that's right! Joe’s just happy to be in, hanging on.

Nick Johnson

But yeah, reverse discrimination. It's a thing. Reverse discrimination is discrimination. And so, the common example is, you know, a Caucasian male claiming that he wasn't promoted because of some DEI program. The EEOC made it clear that that should be treated the exact same way that discrimination is treated.

Declan Leonard

And it's not just promotions or hiring or firing, right?

Nick Johnson

That's right. The guidance goes on to talk about, you know, obviously, whenever you're claiming discrimination, you need to show some harm, some injury, typically adverse employment action. Your run-of-the-mill is termination, hiring, firing, demotion, or a change in pay. What's interesting is this guidance goes on to kind of elaborate on some other things that some people may not think of as adverse employment action.

We're talking about exclusion from training, exclusion from mentoring, exclusion from fellowships. Here's a big one: exclusion from networking opportunities.

Declan Leonard

That is so interesting.

Nick Johnson

You’ve got to be careful about the all-guys happy hour or the women's lunches or what have you. So, if you're excluding people and I think the biggest thing, too, is, is if they're missing out on opportunities to grow, that's when you're going to have a real problem. But yeah, that guidance really elaborates on what it means.

Joe Young

A little broader.

Nick Johnson

Yeah, much broader.

Joe Young

Absolutely broader.

Declan Leonard

It's one government that's a shrinking government right now. How are they going to get inside? How are they going to know that this is happening? What's their hook?

Nick Johnson

Yeah. We talked about the hotlines. We talked about the reporting. I think the biggest thing is going to come from those certifications.

The certification, what we're talking about is, for all government contractors when they're certifying to the government, they now need to certify that they do not maintain any illegal DEI programs or policies.

That was part of the challenge that Declan mentioned early on that was subject to the injunction that has since been lifted. You're going to start seeing those certifications show up, if not already.

Declan Leonard

I was at an event this morning full of government contractors and there was a show of hands who has seen or received a certification, and surprisingly, about a dozen hands went up. I was surprised, some of them stand-alone certifications and some of them in the context of a contract modification. So, it was part of maybe an extension or something like that.

Those certifications are already coming out.

Nick Johnson

Absolutely.

Joe Young

And there's a there's a deadline, a date out there, isn’t there, for compliance?

Nick Johnson

That's right. Yeah. April 20th is the big deadline to kind of keep in mind. Now is the time to be taking action to kind of make sure that you're not maintaining any of these illegal DEI practices.

Joe Young

So, Declan, has the Trump administration specifically simply called out the government contractors as being in the crosshairs for this? I mean, everything we obviously just talked about with the agencies, but is there any specific language from the administration with regard to the contractors?

Declan Leonard

Yeah, 100%. We've talked about this before. We've said that federal contractors - and I don't mean this in a pejorative way - but they're sort of like the guinea pigs when it comes to things like this, because it's so easy for an administration to get at this group as opposed to purely private sector companies because they pay them.

They have the purse strings and they have the leverage. So, these certifications, it's basically “certify that you don't engage in illegal DEI or you're not going to get paid.” You can take a principled stand all you want. You will be out of business if you do so. You know, if you don't take some action here. So, yes, they absolutely are.

They've made it clear that they're going to really use the Federal False Claims Act as their hook. If you make a certification and it turns out to be wrong, you do use DEI, what they would consider to be illegal DEI, that they can come after you under the Federal False Claims Act, which is not just civil monetary liability, it can potentially be criminal liability. And it's gotten even worse because of what the OFCCP - which we talked about this in the January Round-Up. Basically we thought that's gone away. That's the one where contractors were required to submit affirmative action plans up until two months ago. But now what happened is they've got a new OFCCP head, Catherine Eschbach, and she's basically saying, you know what, “We're still alive and kicking it here at OFCCP. We don't care about your affirmative action plans right now. Don't submit us those. We're going to start looking at your old affirmative action plans.”

This is according to press reports that we're going to look at the ones that you have filed in prior years. Keep in mind, those were absolutely not only legal to file, they were required in order to be a government contract.

Nick Johnson

What I think is interesting is… So it was reported from an internal email, I believe, that was circulated amongst all staff from the new director of the OFCCP. She used the phrase “autopsy.” We're going to conduct an autopsy on all affirmative action plans to ensure that there's no illegal DEI.

Declan Leonard

DEI is DOA. Yes, yes. Now we're starting to use the language.

Joe Young

When we had to report what we were doing to you…

Nick Johnson

So, I mean, yes, I think you're going to see some more audits. I think the fact that this is something that came out within I think the first week of her assuming office, it's consistent with what you're seeing over at the EEOC with the appointment of Andrea Lucas and her opening press release.

She said, “one of my top priorities is investigating illegal DEI.” You're seeing it across the agencies now and now OFCCP is kind of following suit, and they're going to be looking at old affirmative action plans.

Declan Leonard

I think our friends at Berkshire, our great sponsor. They are going to be busy. I mean, I think in some respects they're going to be quite busy, in this area of trying to figure out what are contractor potential liability for filing affirmative action plans that they actually were required to in order to be government contractors up until 2 to 3 months ago.

Nick Johnson

And one of the things when we were talking about enforcement and kind of just showing how serious this administration is. One thing that's kind of gotten - I don't want to say forgotten, but people aren't really talking about it - is when that original executive order came out, there are a number of components to it.

I think the False Claims Act certainly got the most attention. There's also the directive in that executive order, basically having the heads of agency identify the top nine most egregious offenders of DEI. And so you've got this quota, so to speak, of identifying companies. I think that's set to be released in the coming months.

It's coming up.

Joe Young

They didn’t just go straight to the top ten list. They went top nine.

Nick Johnson

They were top nine. Exactly. Yeah.

Declan Leonard

I’ve always hard to figure out what the significance of that is.
Nick Johnson

That work is underway. They're preparing a report to the heads of each agency. I think you're seeing at the EEOC, you're seeing it at the OFCCP, It's just going to kind of continue with these investigations.

Joe Young

So, with all that said, Nick, what should our government be doing right now with regards to DEI? What are the actions they should be taking?

Nick Johnson

If you haven't already done it, you need to do a DEI risk audit. And that kind of really is a comprehensive review of your employment practice. Obviously, taking a look at your handbook, doing a privileged DEI assessment is something that you need to do, but you need to go much broader than that.

You need to look at your websites, you need to look at your job postings, you need to look at your job applications. I think you also just need to look internally at how you operate. What is it that you consider when you're interviewing people, when you're hiring people. Do you have employee research groups?

You know, when you talk about, internal mentorship programs, is this something that's kind of open to everyone or are you excluding people? And it could be subconsciously. And so you really need to look much broader than just your handbook, because I think what we're seeing is these audits are coming and you want to make sure that you've done your homework.

Now, I don't want to sit here and say that the words DEI or diversity or equity are, per se illegal. And you hear of some companies, clients, just kind of purging that word. It's not per se illegal, but I think it should be a shift in focus from diversity to inclusion. I think inclusion has got to be your most important priority.

Joe Young

So you mentioned employee resource groups. Actually, we had a question come in exactly on the term, and somebody said, “If we have an employee resource groups, ERGs, for groups like Working Mothers, LGBTQ employees… Do we need to disband them or what if we just open them up to everyone?” What’s the step forward in those situations?

Nick Johnson

It's a good question. I think, from my perspective, I think if those ERGs explicitly exclude others, it's going to be problematic under this administration. Where I would find it problematic is, if in these ERGs you're seeing people use those as a vehicle to advance within an organization - you know, get promoted, get a pay increase, get more opportunities, get better work assignments - and people are being excluded, that's going to be problematic.

Declan Leonard

I've heard people say, “Well, fine, we'll just open them up to everybody.” But I just, you know - we've talked about this internally here, Nick. I just don't think that that's a quick, easy fix because if the content and the subject matter of those group meetings are still the same, somebody is going to say, “Sure, they let me in the door. But when I got there, I felt really, really awkward, excluded, and I felt like the content of it made me feel a little bit under attack. And therefore, I feel that that was unlawful.”

Nick Johnson

It's tricky if you're not feeling welcome in a group that's sponsored by your employer because of some protected class. Yeah, even if it's in the class that's a majority, that could be problematic as well. So, I think you're right. There's not one size fits all.

Declan Leonard

And the hardest thing is to take drastic measures to send an email out and saying, “As of today, no more of these resource groups. They're all banned. They're all going away.” You've also got to think about the reality.

Joe Young

There’s cultural issues there.

Declan Leonard

Your culture just went down the tubes. And so I think it's got to be a little bit more of a of a - I hate to say a wait and see approach - but I think what you would do as the company is to say, look, let's take this stuff, let's maybe pause things and do a comprehensive review to make sure that while we are encouraging people to advance themselves professionally, we're not doing it at the expense of other groups.

So pause it for maybe a couple of months, because right now, we're right hot and heavy in the crosshairs.

Nick Johnson

And Joe, you're asking about what companies can do now. Given the stated priorities - and I think it's safe to assume anticipated enforcement that we're going to see from OFCCP - it's in your best interest to take a look at your prior affirmative action plans, take a look at what was submitted so that you kind of have an idea of what may happen if there is an audit.

I think another thing to kind of consider is as you're updating and reviewing and kind of considering what you need to change as it relates to these DEI audits, an internal memo is not a bad idea. I think, you know, identifying your thought process, your commitment to EEO...

Joe Young

Moralize things.

Nick Johnson

Exactly. Because, if the day comes six months, a year from now, where there is an audit, it'd be helpful to have an internal memo that says, “Okay, here's why we did what we did.” Just to kind of explain your rationale.

Declan Leonard

It's almost like a time stamped document, because here's what's going to happen: You need to do a DEI high-risk audit, but you're going to miss something. Somebody is going to have a version of your handbook that is not the latest and greatest that's been scrubbed of DEI stuff. And they're going to use that.

And then if the government comes knocking, you're going to feel sort of flat-footed and already sort of on the defense, if they're showing you stuff, maybe an old version of your website, and you're trying to say, “Oh, yeah, but we did it because…”

I think you're right, Nick. What you need to do is an internal memo.

We're not talking about necessarily about something disseminated to staff, but really just saying here is our current view. We are fully in favor of equal opportunity for everyone. Everyone gets a fair shake. Nobody gets a leg up at the expense of somebody else. And if the government does come knocking and you say you want to know what we think and you can pull stuff from all over places, here's what we think right here.

And listen, this is going to be a bit of a numbers game for the government. They're not going be able to go after everyone. If you do that, I think you're ahead of the curve. And I think they may then move on to the next one.

Nick Johnson

I like that idea. I think, too, the other thing to note is, while it's probably a good idea to have this centralized and kind of run through HR and hopefully with the assistance of outside counsel, I think you also need to think broader, just kind of in terms of talk to your recruitment managers, talk to the people who are conducting interviews.

I think back to… you remember not too long ago where companies were blasted? Where they would post a picture of their leadership or their managers and they would be blasted because it was all male or all one race. And then you would have this knee-jerk reaction where that company would say, “We need more females in leadership. We need more diversity in our management.”

You need to make sure that the people that are making those hiring decisions are not letting that factor in, because the reality is if that happens, yeah, that's going to be considered a illegal DEI with this administration.

Declan Leonard

Yeah, 100%.

Joe Young

So, with our remaining time, let's maybe try and hit a couple other topics that are obviously front and center as well. So obviously we have the agency funding cuts and our clients have been laser-focused on the cuts since DOGE went into overdrive. Where do we see, at the present time in terms of agencies, where the most cuts are happening?

Declan Leonard

We spent a February Round-Up talking about it. I think we called it like “furloughs and funding cuts” and stuff. And we talked about a lot of these issues. And so, I think what we wanted to do is maybe just update where are we seeing those cuts right now? Obviously, defense spending is still being untouched or frankly sometimes being increased, at least at its core function of national security.

The agencies right now, these are the the industries: science, health, education - of course, and transportation. These are all seeing cuts. What's interesting also, though, is consulting services. And that goes across all of these industries. The administration seem - and DOGE really seems – laser-focused on what they call consulting services. Then it's largely, the large sort of behemoth consulting companies that we've talked about before, and they've asked them to justify what they do.

And here's the guidance that DOGE gave to the largest consulting firms. They are required to justify what they do. And it says, “a 15-year-old should be able to understand” - this is a quote – “a 15-year-old should be able to understand what service you provide and why it is important. No consultative jargon or gobbledygook.”

Joe Young

It's a technical term.

Declan Leonard

I'm telling you.

 

I'm thinking maybe they want a TikTok video of what you do. I don't know what they want. A 15-year-old, you know. I mean, do they even use periods and commas anymore?

So they're coming after him hard. They are definitely coming after consulting firms. They also want to know - and this is another quote - GSA is asking consulting firms to “detail how pricing is structured for each contract, project, or category. Explain any pricing differences between agencies and how these pricing structures compare to market information in your possession.”

The Treasury Secretary, Scott Bessent, says that he believes consulting firms - he said this over the weekend - are like a boa constrictor around federal spending programs. So, if you are in consulting for the federal government, just know there's a bigger target on your back right now and you've got to really get ahead of this.

Nick Johnson

Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think you're starting to see that now. A number of our clients, local government contractors, you're starting to see those cuts happen. You're starting to see these companies have to do group layoffs, mass layoffs, kind of go through that WARN Act exercise.

Joe Young

We actually have another live question we want to address. Somebody asks, “What will the OFCCP be looking for in the previous affirmative action plan?”

Declan Leonard

It remains to be seen. But remember, like, you were supposed to show your affirmative efforts to recruit and hire women, minorities - which now this administration just says that flat out discrimination. And they say it's discrimination that was illegal well before this current Trump administration. So, that's their view of it. So, that's part of it.

They have not necessarily specified exactly what it is. This could be a threat. Again, it has not been publicly pronounced. I think The Wall Street Journal was reporting on it from, I think you said an internal email or something like that.

So, you know, it's a good question, but there's nothing you can do about it right now. But I would say I would take a look at those under the lens of what this administration believes in terms of what is illegal DEI just so that again you're not caught flat-footed, and that you maybe can explain what you did back then.

Nick Johnson

Yeah, it looks like we have another question on layoffs.

Declan Leonard

Yeah a question or two.

Joe Young

Yeah. So other question - and again, thanks to the audience out there. “If we laid off an employee, but due to a reversal,” - these did happen by the agency – “We want to bring the employee back. Do we need to restart the clock on the employee relationship and do a new onboarding?”

Declan Leonard

Oh, this is the tricky one. The tough job of HR right now.

Nick Johnson

This kind of goes to the decision of whether or not to furlough or terminate. And so I think when you're weighing those options in terms of do we permanently terminate somebody or do we kind of go with the temporary option of a furlough? Your first obligation is to get a sense from your contracting officer how permanent this is.

We're seeing exactly what happened in this question where there's cuts, but then, maybe a month or so later, the government says, “You know what? We're actually we're back. We want everyone back.” And so, I think you really need to kind of get a sense from your contracting officer, “Hey, is this something that you see as permanent and not coming back?”

And if that's the case, maybe it's a term. Yeah, but if you get a sense of, “Hey, you know, we're going to kind of see what happens. We got some arguments we're pushing back on this.” Maybe do a temporary furlough.

Declan Leonard

Yeah. It has real world consequences for HR out there. I mean, if you think about just all of the stuff, PTO, let's just say you have a probationary period or introductory period where somebody's not allowed to use paid time off - 60, 90 days. Do you put that employee who was an employee and then wasn't for 30 days and now is back on?

What if they have an FMLA-qualified need. Do they satisfy the 12-months and 1250 hours, even though there's that gap of one month? I mean, again, we're not here to offer necessarily the answers. I wish we could.

Nick Johnson

What do you do if that person, they've been out of work for, let's just say, a month maybe longer, they filed for unemployment? They receive state benefits as part of this termination. Then they want to bring them back. Do you look back to their prior employment? Yeah, it's a tough one.

Declan Leonard

Yeah, no doubt. No question.

Joe Young

Another question coming in.

Declan Leonard

We might go overtime here.

Joe Young

Should companies continue to collect race/gender data in order to analyze selection in compliance with EEO laws?

Declan Leonard

Yes. This is a great question because it's two different things. One is collection of this data. And of course, many contractors out there still have their EEO-1 filings that they have to do. That is data-driven. That is the collection of data. Affirmative action plans by the OFCCP was, “I'm taking affirmative action to hire more women. I'm taking affirmative action to hire more blacks in these jobs.”

You know, this is more collecting the data in order to analyze it. And keep in mind, discrimination is still unlawful. And remember, you've got a lot of state laws that come into play. So, if you get hit with a discrimination lawsuit, you can't just say, “Well, wait a second, our defense is that this stuff really doesn't matter anymore,” because that ain't going to work at all.

So, you really do, internally at least, want to have a good handle on where you stand with regard to your workforce and what it looks like. You can't change it, but you should know

Nick Johnson

Yeah, EEO is certainly alive and well. Nothing in these executive orders changes Equal Employment Opportunity protected classes. They still remain. EEOC is still very much a thing, and I would actually say very active at this day and age. And so, yeah, these executive orders do not change EEO at all.

Declan Leonard

All right. Lightning round.

Joe Young

Lightning round. Okay. We are at time. Okay. We had a topic here we've run out of time on. But does anybody want to make any comments about the EO with regards to the GSA moving everything and moving over to GSA?

Declan Leonard

I will say that it is a trend that everything's being consolidated. So, in a nutshell, there were some new executive orders that is looking to move IT, technology-type contracts over to GSA. Right now, they largely are done agency by agency, and the same thing goes for payment of those.

Another executive order said payments are all going to come centralized from Treasury. Where I see this coming into play is payments are probably not going to be perhaps as timely, at least in the short run, while they do this consolidation, and oh my goodness, having everything go through GSA, so many contracts, I can't imagine. I mean, the protest backlog, the contracting backlog… This end of fiscal year on September 30th, 2025, is going to be a show.

Nick Johnson

And it's no shocker that because of that anticipated headache that's about to come, they do give GSA the opportunity to opt in or opt out, to basically decline whether they want to keep it on the agency level. There's apparently supposed to be a comprehensive plan coming out as part of this executive order that the GSA should be rolling out.

And so stay tuned for that. That should be coming out. I think the next 60 or 90 days.

Declan Leonard

September is right around the corner. They are trying to use AI as part of this process to help them. But it is very much a work in progress. So, we'll continue to monitor this.

Joe Young

Well, it sounds like we're going to not have any trouble finding topics from month to month between now and September. Speaking of next month, as we wrap up here, again, thanks to everybody for joining us. I want to thank Nick for stepping in and joining us today.

Declan Leonard

I think he passed I think he passed.

Joe Young

I think he passed. Seth’s out there walking the floors worried about his future.

Nick Johnson

He might be sweating.

Joe Young

Yeah, he may be sweating. But for next month, we're going to be back on our normal third Thursday schedule for next month.

Currently, we are planning to talk about severance and separation agreements again in line with some of the topics today. We do reserve the right, based on what happens between now and then, to switch topics and try and remain timely and try and provide you guys with timely, important information.

A lot to cover today to our HR warriors out there: As I said, remain vigilant. We wish you all the best and always feel free to reach out to our experts here if they can support you in any way. Thanks again for joining us, and we look forward to seeing you next month.