The Crucial Role of Management Training During Trump 2.0

Joe Young

Hello and welcome to all of our GovCon HR friends. Welcome back. Thank you for joining us. Welcome to episode 17 of the GovCon HR Round-Up podcast. Special welcome to any first-time listeners. You may find this hard to believe, but you've actually missed a lot of exciting content.

Declan Leonard

17!

Joe Young

In the first 16 episodes. It is kind of the season of maybe, like some summer binge watching. Do you think anybody would actually binge-watch the first 16 episodes of the Round-Up?

Declan Leonard

You finish White Lotus, and you go to the blue blazer group here.

Joe Young

It's hard for us to believe, as we realize we’re on episode 17. But welcome back. My name is Joe Young. I'm the president of GovConPay. We are the only outsourced payroll and HR technology provider focused exclusively on serving the government contracting marketplace. We are joining you here from the studios of BLC Digital Strategies, which is the media affiliate of Berenzweig Leonard LLP.

And appreciate all the support from the team behind the scenes, especially our producer, Mr. Todd Castleberry. Before we get started, as always, I do want to thank our sponsor, our great friends from the folks at Berkshire and Associates. For those of you not familiar with Berkshire, they are HR compliance experts with over 50 years of experience in providing compliance services and technology for organizations that look for the ideal workforce through compliant nondiscrimination services, workforce analytics, and pay equity expertise.

So special welcome to any clients of Berkshire that are joining us today. It's great to be gathered again for the Round-Up with our expert commentators, the founding partners of Berenzweig Leonard, employment law experts Mr. Seth Berenzweig, Mr. Declan Leonard, why don't you guys introduce yourself to any of our new listeners?

Declan Leonard

You go first. Your name is first on the door.

Seth Berenzweig

I came in early this morning and I switched the names. Seth Berenzweig, I'm the co-founding and co-managing partner of Berenzweig Leonard.

Declan Leonard

And Declan Leonard, also managing partner here Berenzweig Leonard, where I head up the firm's employment law practice. It's great to be here again, Joe.

Joe Young

Great to be back, guys. Happy May to everybody. So, today's topic in episode 17 is management training in the age of DoGE. It seems like all of our topics end with “in the age of DoGE.”

Declan Leonard

Yeah, exactly.

Joe Young

It's kept us on our toes since January. We look forward to diving into that topic. But before we do, and as we have been with most of the episodes here in 2025, with a very changing landscape, Declan, why don't you give us maybe just an update since we were here last month?

 

Maybe some of the things that we want to touch on, outside of our topic for the day, that are important for our audience to be aware of.

Declan Leonard

Yeah, it's hard to say. Things have slowed down a little bit. But we were sort of drinking from the fire hydrant, trying to cover all of the activity, the flurry of activity starting in January. So, for the last, however many of these, we've done – five, four so far this year – We really did focus on what was going on.

You can't have one of these round tables in 2025 without talking about DEI. I think by now, everybody understands that this administration certainly is engaged in a battle against what they say is illegal DEI. And there's certainly been a lot of talk. I think I personally have always wondered, are they going to match this bark with bite?

And I think we found out a couple of days ago that the answer is yes. Because, in addition to all of the proclamations against DEI and “how you better not have it, and we're going to make you certify it,” and everything, there was a memo that was released by the Department of Justice that got a lot of attention.

And it basically talks about establishing a task force. So that task force will now enforce DEI with contractors. Seth and I were talking about this.

Seth Berenzweig

Yeah. This is under the False Claims Act. So, they're walking the talk. In other words, they're not only issuing executive orders and making commandments from the mount, but they're also backing it up with a task force that is specifically developed to come after companies under the False Claims Act.

And as we know, the False Claims Act comes in with a lot of bite, including up to debarment.

Declan Leonard

And they're also really encouraging employees, former employees, potentially former disgruntled employees who may have been laid off as a result of all of this government activity, to tell on their employers or their former employers. And to me, that's going to be the most potent of all, because there are a lot of layoffs. A lot of these layoffs are being imposed upon companies by DoGE’s activities.

So, it's almost like this vicious cycle that's happening. But I think that's the one where companies, may find themselves in the crosshairs a bit. The other thing, we'll just spend a second on it, which is the efforts to overhaul the FAR, Federal Acquisition Regulation. That is a big endeavor that's going on as we speak.

Agencies are required to designate point people, and start the process. It's supposed to end by October 12th, which even though that does seem like the fall time, a bit away, in government speak and in government timelines, that is really shortly and comes up 12 days after the end of the fiscal year, which we already know for government contractors is just like, crazy, crazy time.

So, in essence, they want to pare down the FAR, only things that are mandated by statute. So, there's been a lot of what you call, I guess, mission creep or whatever in the FAR that's come up. And it's made it this voluminous document. They want to pare it down to only statutory requirements.

 

They want it written in plain English, which is going to put us out of a job and remove all reference to DEI. There you go. It's like if you're playing bingo at home, that's two DEIs. So, yeah, that's what’s coming. We don't have a ton to report on that yet, other than that it is well underway.

Joe Young

What about the impact of that in the FAR on existing contracts?

Declan Leonard

Yeah, I mean, that's a great question because I think that's where I mean… certainly they could do modifications. I think where we're going to see it mostly though, is we're coming to the end of the fiscal year where new contract vehicles will be initiated. That's where we'll probably see it mostly come into play.

And again, this could get extended. I mean, October 12th is a self-imposed deadline, an aggressive deadline. But I think what they're going to see is they're going to run up against the reality that it's just too hard. These agencies and these agency heads are having to do so much these days. And then this is just one additional thing.

So, that's kind of a to-be-determined.

Joe Young

Okay. Well, let's get to our main topic for today then. So, with regards to management training, Seth, we’ll kind of lead it off with you. Why is the need for management training so critical for GovCons with all the new administration’s doing?

Seth Berenzweig

Well, I think it's because there's just so much changing. There are so many sea changes that are coming about that it's difficult to have your front-line defense, your management, be able to protect the best interests of the company without providing some base-level training. And if you don't train them and if they're not covered, then the company's not covered.

Think of all the changes that have been happening over just the last couple of months because of DoGE. Now, for those playing drinking games at home, that's another DoGE. So, you have changes in the agencies which are being de-scoped. You're having changes in the FAR that's also being de-scoped, and you're having, as a result, changes in the personnel of the companies.

At the government contractor sites, we're having a decrease and there's been a lot of HR activity. So, it's with all of these changes and that's really just three fronts, those are some examples of why it's more important than ever to make sure that your managers, which are really on the first line of defense for the company, really have an understanding of what's going on.

Because if you don't provide them with the tools to be able to protect the company, then how are they supposed to do that? Now more than ever, it's really critical to make sure that there's training and that there is an understanding of not only what the changes are, but to have a roundtable discussion within the company to talk about how that applies to your procurement environment at your particular company.

Joe Young

And I guess in prior administrations, obviously, training is always important on that. But are you seeing just a higher, obviously just being so much more prevalent, and people just need to be so much more out in the front of their skis with this more than in the past?

Seth Berenzweig

Yeah, I would say yes. It's interesting because training should have always remained constant, but now it's even more important than ever before because there are so many changes happening that you're not putting your managers in the best position until they understand what are the changes and how they fit into the environment.

And frankly, I would also just talk about even running some scenarios across the board with your management team to understand how to be able to address these things. There's been a lot of activity that we've seen with our clients, and a lot of tug and pull. So, you have, on the one hand, instances where companies are being told that the company is gone and that there needs to be reductions in force.

But you also have other instances where the customer’s coming in, sometimes with authority, sometimes without authority, saying we want such and such to stay. So, there's a lot of conflicts that can come up along the way as well.

Declan Leonard

Yeah. We do quite a bit of training for our clients and we've had sort of a running outline that we work on. We update it all the time. And there are always changes in the law, and sometimes it's state law, sometimes it's federal law. But more so than ever with this new administration, we've had to do substantial rewrites of it.

And so, I felt like in the past with our clients, especially after doing a couple of annual trainings, it's more reinforcement. This is more teaching, learning, because you're not reinforcing things. You're telling them for the first time, here's the way it goes. And for government contractors, again, kind of the guinea pigs, because they get paid by the government, they have to adhere quicker than others.

Seth Berenzweig

And it can change on a daily basis. The new task force, Declan, that you talked about? That news came out within roughly the last 24 hours. So, things are changing on literally a daily basis.

Declan Leonard

And they're de-emphasizing so many other priorities. They're going to have time to go after this DEI through this task force. I think they're going to be very robust with this.

Joe Young

So, let's maybe talk more about some of the specifics. We throw out HR training as, like, a broad subject. It means different things to different people. Let's set the stage: What do we mean when we say management training, and who should attend?

Declan Leonard

Yeah. It's so true because training is overused, and it means so many different things to different people, different companies. The way I explain it to the companies is this: As a lawyer, they call us for all kinds of problems that arise. Training can become like, sort of, an ounce of prevention. Sometimes these trainings, we're not talking about putting people through, like, a five-day bootcamp.

It's really just oftentimes 90 minutes, but 90 very concentrated minutes, where you're meeting with managers. And so, the question is, why managers? Well, the reason why managers is managers are your first line of defense. The managers are the ones who are going to pick up on the issues. And sometimes the clients will say to me, like, well, what manager should come because we have this level of manager and that level.

And it is different at every company because they call things different things. Sometimes they'll call them directors or frontline directors, whatever. Anybody who works in a supervisory role where they have to manage people, because that's where they're seeing the issues that arise. A lot of issues don't get to HR departments in a timely manner, or if at all.

Sometimes, HR, unfortunately, finds out about this stuff after the fact. I've always said, ideally, I want to come to your office and have a captive audience. I think that's the most effective. When I've done it that way, we've had great give and take. Seth, you mentioned scenarios, and I love using real-life scenarios and then just getting their feedback.

But if you have to do it by video… Nowadays, a lot of companies don't have headquarters to even meet in. Or they have employees around the country. So, video is fine, too. I'm a little biased against that, especially when you're sitting there and you’re the only one on camera and you're like, gosh, I can imagine what they're doing in the background. Are they all sleeping or are they all like, you know…

Joe Young

Cameras must be on.

Declan Leonard

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Making gestures towards me on this.

Seth Berenzweig

They’re binge-watching our priors.

Declan Leonard

Yeah, yeah. That's right. They're doing a catch-up. I think these online programs that you see for training, where they're sort of product-based, “read this and check the box,” or whatever. I mean, I know for myself it doesn't work. I don't think it works as well. I think this is too important an area to rely on it for these out-of-the-box products.

Joe Young

So does that mean that all-hands training is not as much of a priority? And they should just be focused on managers? Or is it kind of a combination?

Declan Leonard

I think you do still have to have all-hands, all-staff training. But, I mean, listen, companies have limited time. They have limited budgets. If you had to pick between the two, I would pick management training. I think it's more effective. We'll talk a little bit later about some other trainings, particularly staff trainings.

But if I were picking between the two and I was telling my clients, I'd say do management training. It's going to have much more bang for its buck.

Joe Young

Great. So, let's talk about some of these specific topics to talk about. Okay. We’ve talked about who the audience is, how we should kind of target this, but what are some of the law topics that make sense to cover in these trainings?

Seth Berenzweig

So, let me start out with a few categories that I think might fall out of the slightly more typical or more traditional elements of this kind of training. I think that in terms of where we are today, it would be interesting to consider providing your group with, first of all, a list of some of the executive orders, some of the recent executive orders, so that they can understand the activity.

It happens so quickly that it's hard to parse through it. And, obviously, you don't have to worry about some of them. They don't need to learn about TikTok. But things that relate to human resources and federal procurement, I think, would be helpful. It's also helpful for them to understand what the recent task forces are that have been developed.

As Declan mentioned, there is a task force related to DEI and the False Claims Act. I read recently there's also a new task force that's being developed in Washington and Baltimore with regard to issues concerning procurement fraud, and being careful with regard to procurement and pricing issues.

Other traditional elements that should always be in this kind of training relate to hiring, firing, discipline, accommodations, consistency and accuracy of reasons for discipline and termination. And to also really think about, and project, what contracts, might be at risk, from a from a scoping perspective and how managers can approach that.

So, there’s an array of things, between the traditional and some of the other pieces, and having a consideration, you can do it internally. You can bring a firm on board to come in. I do agree with Declan’s point that doing them in person, I think, can be very helpful. And when you have a more of an executive roundtable scenario where people are at the table drinking coffee together, it provides a more lively debate where people are more encouraged to come in and talk about the scenarios and examples, because that's really where a lot of the conversation happens.

Joe Young

And obviously, a lot of our focus and things we're talking about are related to the executive orders and the new administration and things from a federal level. But these are going down, and having state impacts as well, correct?

Seth Berenzweig

Yeah, absolutely. State law applies. So, if you have, for example, a company that's based in Ruston and they have employees that, among other areas, are in California, your employment contract can provide that, in the event of a dispute, that Virginia law applies. But that doesn't mean that California law doesn't apply relative to the employment laws for the employee in California.

So, yes, the state laws are going to be a part of the picture. And the company should consider, in terms of their employee distribution, what jurisdictions are there and what other laws apply. Some states are very different. Generally speaking, the West Coast states have different rules, and perhaps one could say more liberal provisions and disclosure requirements.

Even in terms of the hiring process, there are different kinds of pay transparency laws and things that you can and can't say. So, thinking about what state laws come into play as well is definitely a relevant component.

Declan Leonard

Just to pick up on that and just, the importance of state laws and knowing the state laws you mentioned California. You think about something like non-competition agreements. We all – well, we don't all know – non-competition agreements in California are void against public policy. They cannot be enforced. But now we're seeing that Florida, on this side of the coast, is taking the exact opposite.

 

And this just came out the other day. It goes into effect on July 1st.

Seth Berenzweig

I think it came out this week.

Declan Leonard

Yeah, yeah. Florida. I mean, just basically breaking news. Florida is wholeheartedly embracing non-compete agreements. So, California, you are gone on a non-compete agreement. You can't enforce it. Florida says there is a presumption in favor of it. In fact, they say you can have a non-compete agreement of up to four years. Which, for those of us have been doing this a long time, we sort of quiver when we see two years in some of these agreements with our clients.

We're like, dial it back, let's get to 18 months and preferably 12 months. Yeah, they're saying four years. So, it's interesting. You’ve got to know your different areas, no doubt about it.

Seth Berenzweig

Yeah. And I'm glad you mentioned that because I think that Florida is almost trying to flex its muscles to say, “hey, if you're looking for a red state, Texas isn't the only game in town. Come to come to Florida. And we've got your back.” I've never seen, as far as I can recall, the state that comes in and says, rather than like in California, you can't do a non-compete, where a state comes in like Florida and says, we will support your non-compete.

I know Virginia has really had a lot of changes over the last two years in terms of employment law, but that was a major development that happened.

Declan Leonard

It really was. Yeah.

Joe Young

The underlying motivations of some of these law changes as it relates to driving business, attracting in corporations.

I grew up in Delaware, where everybody was driving to Delaware. Now Delaware, things changed. And now, yeah, I've seen Texas and these other states are coming up and trying to steal that incorporation business away. So, it's interesting.

Seth Berenzweig

Delaware is a good place to be because you have certainty, and you have the Chancery courts, which are a little bit different. But some of that's a little bit of a wives’ tale. I mean, that's like incorporating in Nevada. I mean, really, Nevada?

Declan Leonard

Yeah. I do agree. Yeah. Yeah.

Seth Berenzweig

But you know, that development in Florida, that's a really big deal, and it's extremely rare.

Joe Young

The goals of this training. I mean, obviously, you're not going to turn your managers into HR experts.

Declan Leonard

Or God forbid, lawyers.

Joe Young

Or God forbid, lawyers. So what's the goal of these trainings? What's the end game and the expectation?

Declan Leonard

Yeah, it's almost like building awareness. Seth mentioned a couple of these categories that you really need to hit. So, for instance, I call it the retaliation trap. All of these federal laws have what they call anti-retaliation provisions. And where companies most often become offenders is at the management level, because this is not retaliation happening at the HR level.

It's mostly happening at the management level. So, you would use this training to really impress upon them that if there is somebody that makes a complaint and it is protected activity, or at least in good faith protected activity, “I think I'm being targeted by my boss, because of my gender or my race,” or something.

That boss, the manager, is not going to be thrilled by that. They're going to be like, “This person is no longer a team player.” All of a sudden, things like you're not being invited to happy hour, you're not being invited to lunches that others are.

Seth Berenzweig

Or status meetings.

Declan Leonard

But yeah, believe it or not, you're not going out to the coveted client meetings, things of that nature. Those are all forms of retaliation. And HR is not in those interactions. And so, what you're really trying to do is you're trying to make sure they understand, if you do this… You're the ones who can create liability for the company.

You have a big role in that. So, you're really trying to show like issue spotting. Another example would be ADA accommodations. Seth talked about those. We are seeing so many requests for reasonable accommodations under the Americans with Disabilities Act for remote work. I mean, I can't tell you, every single day I get a new one because in conjunction with the new administration, they're saying return to the office.

And, of course, the contracting officers are saying, “If we're coming back, you're coming back.” And so, managers are the ones who are often fielding those, and they're often the ones who are communicating, sometimes even advocating, going to bat for the employees because they have a medical condition or whatever. They need to understand the law when it comes to this.

Then, the final thing is, if you do have to have discipline or termination, the managers are often involved in that process. They need to understand that you have to be honest and consistent in that process. You can't sugarcoat it. You can't terminate somebody for performance and then say, “Oh, this was a generalized restructuring.” It sounds like you're trying to save somebody feelings or whatever.

It will come back to bite you. That's the problem.

Joe Young

What about how often, Seth, should or should companies be looking to engage in this activity with their managers?

Seth Berenzweig

Probably annually. I think that's probably a good rule of thumb. I would think that's a minimum. But from a practical standpoint, if you're going to have company-wide training, you're certainly not going to want to be in a position to do it every quarter. Because, just to be honest, it's not very practical, especially when you have to cut into everybody's schedule.

But I think that, if you look at it as an annual part of the process, that's probably a pretty safe and standard approach. Of course, there may be things that come about that create a need for alerts and, in terms of getting updates, that's where technology can come into play.

Joe Young

Now you're now in my world.

Seth Berenzweig

What are your thoughts from a technology standpoint? I mean, that's more important than ever, given all the changes today.

Joe Young

No, absolutely. I mean, that's where we’re coming into my sweet spot in the world of having a robust HRIS system, preferably having a learning management system that's a part of that. So, you can push out this training, make it very accessible, do testing, track results. But even as you're having updates throughout the year, being able to push out and have a way to seamlessly communicate that using a technology platform, getting away from manual processes, manual paperwork, those types of things, is certainly a big part of what our firm and other firms like us are trying to bring people to get, especially in a remote work environment.

Because again, it's not like it's like, “Hey, we're doing the monthly training or the quarterly training. Everybody, come down to the boardroom. It's that time of the quarter again.”

You're having to push this out to remote environments. So, technology becomes a really big part of being able to execute on this great advice.

Declan Leonard

Yeah. I mean back in the day before these platforms like GovConPay you used to have to update your handbook, which is a colossal undertaking. I mean, it sounds like, “Oh, let's get this updated.” But by the time it's – it takes months usually, because you've got so many stakeholders that have to review it and it's not the most efficient way you should still do it.

But using platforms such as what you all are used to with your client base, I mean, that's critical communication. You say annually and I totally agree with you, but you could joke that it could have been weekly in these last couple of months because of new stuff coming into play.

Joe Young

And the state piece comes into that so much. I think that's where we see it in our government contracting space, more than with a lot of commercial clients. And we have clients that aren’t necessarily what you would think of as large by size in employee count, but they're in 15 states. And then all of a sudden, they add that person from Colorado or New Jersey or California.

And the employee documents need to change. And what’s an efficient way to push that out to everybody, make sure they saw it, they acknowledge it? Most of the systems have electronic signature capabilities. So, in an ever-changing world and in a growing remote workforce, those changes and being able to push those out and knowing you've got your boxes checked is more and more important.

Declan Leonard

Yeah.

Joe Young

So, kind of wrapping up and bringing us home here. Declan, what are some of the other types of internal HR compliance training we should be doing on a regular basis for the general workforce?

Declan Leonard
We talked about this a little bit earlier. Like the types of trainings that I've regularly done for the entire workforce, is harassment, sometimes specifically sexual harassment training. It's good to obviously be doing this to make sure that the workforce knows what your expectations are with regard to this.

You hope that the law that you're espousing, that it is wrong to harass your coworkers, to constantly ask for dates and other things is wrong, but it's good to have those reminders, because what it does say to the workforce is we take this stuff very seriously. And, if, heaven forbid, you get hit with a lawsuit, it's nice to be able to say to a judge or a jury, “We don't just do lip service. We actually do training. We hire attorneys or we hire consultants to come in and do this training.”

So, that's one of it. I think ethics and compliance training, in the GovCon world is always a very important thing. And then finally, insider threat awareness training. You know, cyber.

Joe Young

We’ve talked about that a lot with our government contractors. It’s a standard requirement most of them have. They’re using our site to push them out to the government site where they need to do that training and track completion.

Declan Leonard

Yep. I think I think those are the ones that I see mostly.

Joe Young

And I think again, looking at learning management systems, a lot of this material is delivered in these platforms. There’s standard material out there. And we have a lot of clients, everybody, for sexual harassment just grabs California, pushes that out to all the workforce. They know if everybody takes a California course and passes that, they're pretty much covered everywhere.

Declan Leonard

Yeah. But you're right. Training on the platforms like the one that you all use for GovConPay, it's one thing to have those and to help those. But if everyone on the staff can't readily use them, doesn't know where to find the updates that we've been talking about, then it's useless. So, even just IT training.

Joe Young

And administrators to be able to track and be able to say that, “Hey, everybody did this. They completed it on this date.” They're doing that from a due diligence perspective as well.

Declan Leonard

I mean, Seth and I are in IT training all the time. We're basically the teachers at the firm nowadays of all the systems that we have here. It's amazing.

Seth Berenzweig

Yeah.

Joe Young

Can spot you can spot a phishing email really well? Yes. We get that drilled into us at GovConPay by our teachers.

Seth Berenzweig

Even if it had a little fish, I still don't think I could.

Declan Leonard

Could have it swimming by and you’d be like “Hey, that’s cool. I’ll click on the goldfish.”

Joe Young

I think I’ve clicked your guys’ phishing exercise half the time. I mean, I'm afraid to open anything these days, you know? So, well, wonderful guys. I think that's really our agenda for today. Anything, we want to wrap up with here on our closing minute?

Declan Leonard

Do we have any time because Seth’s been commenting a lot on the air about the Diddy trial. And so, he and I go at it sort of in the hallway. What's your thoughts so far, Seth?

Joe Young

Is Diddy cooked?

Seth Berenzweig

Well, first of all, if Diddy goes to jail, that's going to definitely make a dent in HR training because his seminars will no longer be able to be presented at the New York Ramada. But no, I mean, I think he's cooked. But what do you guys think?

Declan Leonard

Clearly as his defense counsel said, he is guilty of a crime. I just don't think the crime he's guilty of, which is domestic violence and perhaps aggravated domestic violence, if that's what you have, drug use, all that stuff. But RICO violations, running a criminal enterprise…

I don't know if that's what this is. I mean, I'm not condoning it one iota. I just think they may have overcharged this, bringing prostitution over state lines and stuff like that. It really, at the end of the day, I mean, it's horrific to hear the facts, but at the end of the day, you've got to marry those facts up with the law.

Seth Berenzweig

The thing that's ironic is that he's a business executive. And part of the allegations is that he created his business enterprise to help fund a RICO enterprise. So, if he had more corporate training, then he would be more in compliance. So that just goes to show you.

Joe Young

Comes back to our topic today. His employees were not trained well enough

Seth Berenzweig

Well, he wasn’t trained.

Joe Young

Well, we are full-service commentary here. That’s the Round-Up, from our government of topics to leading breaking news in the world.

Seth Berenzweig

We cover it all.

Declan Leonard

We really are.

Seth Berenzweig

Where else could you come in today and have these topics all covered in one podcast?

Joe Young

From DoGE to Diddy, we got it all covered. So, drink again. We said DoGE but that’s the last time.

So, everyone, thank you again for joining us. Hope you enjoyed your time with us today. On behalf of Seth, Declan, and our entire team. We look forward to seeing you again next month, when we will be on June 19th. And we are tentatively scheduled to talk about independent contractors versus employees – the Trump view.

Always subject to change if we have breaking news. But that'll be our topic and we look forward to seeing you then. Everybody, have a great and safe Memorial Day weekend. Take care.